Veneer then assemble a field, or assemble THEN veneer a field?
From Joe on Discord
I’ve a bunch of MDF sitting round and a few veneer I obtained at a storage sale, so I used to be pondering of constructing a veneered field. What’s the typical method to go about it? Assemble the field, then veneer it? Lower the items, veneer them, then assemble? Veneer the MDF face, reduce the items, then veneer the perimeters?
I can see any of these methods working, however I’m undecided which manner often works out one of the best.
5 questions on veneering with burl
From TJ on the FWW discussion board
That is my first try at walnut burl veneer, so I’ve a number of questions relating to making a balanced panel for my undertaking.
I’m planning on a small case piece utilizing 1/2″ Baltic birch ply as my substrate. Since I’m unfamiliar with burl I don’t know what to stability it out with on the inside. My questions are;
1. When utilizing a burl, must you use a crossbanding below it? Will such a layer enhance stability by the elevated glue floor?
2. Since I can’t discern a grain sample in a burl, is there any must be involved about directionality?
3. Do I must be involved concerning the inside veneer’s species or directional placement to make sure stability and a steady panel? Are there higher woods to make use of than others? Is the T&R ratio an element?
4. Would an MDF-faced ply core be higher than the birch?
5. Lastly, would a inflexible glue be higher to make sure stability?
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For the sake of appeasing the robots, right here is the present transcript, cleaned up utilizing AI:
Welcome to Store Discuss Reside, episode 360. Earlier than we get began, we’ve obtained a few bulletins concerning the format and personnel of the present.
First, I need to let everybody know that Amanda is not with Nice Woodworking. We want her one of the best, and may’t wait to see what she has in retailer sooner or later.
With Amanda not with us, we felt the necessity to herald a second co-host, and we’ve elevated Vic from frequent co-host standing to a real 50% host—somebody who’s going to assist drive the way forward for the podcast.
Ben: Hey, Vic.
Vic: Hey, man. How’s it going?
Ben: That’s a technique of doing it, huh?
Vic: You betcha.
Ben: When all the pieces went down, I believed, “It’s time for Vic to tug a heavier load round right here—take half the episodes—and see what occurs.” We’ve been having enjoyable as a duo for some time, so thanks for being an even bigger a part of the present. You’ve already been an enormous half, however now you’re an plain power.
Vic: I respect it—simply being supplied the chance. I believe it’s nice.
Ben: We determined we’re going to commerce off internet hosting. You’ll host an episode, then I’ll host an episode.
Vic: Yeah.
Ben: I’m slightly involved that it means we would not find yourself on the present collectively, so we’d like to verify we do on occasion—as a result of a few of the finest Store Discuss Lives are while you and I are on it collectively.
Vic: We are able to’t sustain that velocity the entire time. It’s not truthful to the remainder of woodworking and the podcast trade. We’re up right here and all people else is simply making an attempt to maintain up.
Ben: The Olympics are going proper now, and there’s an Italian downhill skier—I don’t bear in mind her identify—however that’s you and me, Vic.
Vic: Maintain on. Let’s get this proper. You and I are the Italian lady skier within the Olympics?
Ben: Sure.
Vic: It takes two of us to equal a type of.
Ben: She simply received two gold medals, so I don’t know why you assume one among us could be able to doing something. However sure—we’ll be sure we stay a duo on occasion.
Ben: I’m excited as a result of you’ve a complete totally different community of woodworkers than I do, and a complete totally different perspective on who you need to amplify. You’ve at all times been an enormous a part of the present, and I’m grateful you’re taking a fair larger function.
Vic: It’s going to be good.
Ben: Beginning with this episode, we’ve obtained Steve Der-Garabedian on, who has been a good friend of Vic’s for a few years, an unimaginable woodworker, and he makes a speciality of veneer work. I like Steve as a result of he makes issues approachable. Veneering freaks lots of people out as a result of they assume it’s too laborious or too “subsequent degree,” but it surely’s not. It’s approachable. Having Steve on goes to be nice, and it opens up a complete new realm of woodworking potentialities—a world the place you don’t have to fret about grain path.
Veneering is sort of a ability equivalent to dovetailing, however dovetailing doesn’t open up a complete totally different design universe. Veneering does. When you be taught it and recover from that hump, all the pieces modifications for you as a woodworker.
We discuss rather a lot on this episode about Steve’s e book, Veneering Necessities: Easy Strategies and Sensible Initiatives for In the present day’s Woodworker. We’ll hyperlink to it within the present notes. Vic, why don’t you are taking us away to your first episode?
Vic introduces Steve
Vic: Sounds good. That is thrilling—two-thirds Canadian, one-third American manufacturing right here. I really feel like I ought to get further credit score as a result of I like Canada.
Ben: And we love you.
Vic: Canada’s in all probability my favourite nation.
Ben: Although you want snow tires?
Vic: I take into consideration that far too usually: “The place would I retailer snow tires?”
Ben: You possibly can use them the place you might be, Ben. You guys get a good quantity of snow.
Ben: We simply don’t go anyplace. I had a cousin come up from California—late spring—however we had a whiteout for ten minutes. She panicked. I stated, “Loosen up, I’ve obtained snow tires.” She stated, “You’re making that up. There’s no such factor as snow tires.”
Vic: That’s like after we used to invent issues like snow snakes for folks doing winter coaching.
Ben: Snow tires aren’t actual.
Vic: Steve, you’re recognized up right here in Canada—and everywhere in the world—to your veneering prowess. You also have a e book, which is unbelievable.
Steve: I do have a e book right here someplace.
Vic: You don’t have to indicate it—most individuals hearken to the podcast. I used to carry issues as much as the digicam, and Ben advised me that’s no good. So it’s not present and inform—it’s simply inform.
So earlier than we get into questions: why is veneer so necessary to you?
Why Steve obtained into veneer
Steve: I get requested that rather a lot. I went to Rosewood Studio such as you did. I researched all the pieces earlier than I went there, and after I noticed veneering, I believed, “I’ll take a break throughout that.” Strong wooden or nothing.
Then I obtained there and was proven tips on how to do it correctly. I spotted it’s not simply low cost stuff that delaminates six months later. When it’s completed proper, it’s superb.
One huge factor is you eradicate wooden motion. One other is: if you wish to work with one of the best woods on this planet, you should be taught to veneer. I additionally assume we must be environmentally acutely aware, and veneering helps with that. I bear in mind listening to Mike discuss concerning the emerald ash borer—how white ash won’t be round for much longer—and my thought was: get it and switch it into veneer. You prolong the useful resource.
My favourite manner is utilizing a vacuum bag. It jogs my memory of that Popeil rooster roaster: set it and neglect it. Similar factor with the vacuum press—throw it in there and neglect it till eight hours later.
Vacuum pump discuss
Ben: Vic, I’m already going to throw you for a loop. You’ve obtained a legit vacuum pump—what’s the model?
Vic: It’s VacuPress—the orange smaller one.
Ben: Steve, do you’ve a VacuPress?
Steve: I do. The VacuPress 300, which I consider is inexperienced.
Vic: Query for the viewers: do I actually need that? Can I not get away with a Harbor Freight vacuum pump for some time?
Steve: I haven’t seen the Harbor Freight one. Princess Auto—no matter you name it. What it comes right down to is quantity. A top-of-the-line VacuPress might in all probability run a number of 4×8 baggage without delay. Mine will comfortably do a 4×8 bag, no points, and you may vacuum clamp as properly.
Smaller pumps—relying on the dimensions of the undertaking and bag—won’t evacuate air shortly sufficient earlier than the glue units.
Ben: You additionally run into overheating, proper?
Steve: After I was writing my e book, I requested the man who began VacuPress if it was okay to maintain the pump working lengthy. He stated sure—preserve it working so long as you need. If you happen to’re going longer than half a day or a day, take the quilt off so it cools higher.
Ben: Take its blanket off. I used to have a automobile like that—pop the hood while you run into 7-Eleven.
Ben: Right here was my pondering: glue dries in half an hour. Does it must be within the bag that lengthy?
Steve: Sure. I like Titebond Chilly Press for Veneer. The bottle says minimal 45 minutes as much as two hours, however I don’t take something out of the bag in lower than six or seven hours. If it’s bent work, it’s in a single day.
The one time I take it out earlier is that if it’s an enormous undertaking and I can’t veneer each side on the identical time. I’ll veneer one facet, bag it about 45 minutes, pull it out, veneer the opposite facet, then bag it seven or eight hours.
If you happen to do your urgent on the finish of the day—be sure all the pieces’s sealed and never dropping air—then return to the home and let it run in a single day.
Ben: One factor that made me pleased: Roarockit has a package that for about $100 does the identical factor as a way more costly press. Your fingers and a one-way pump are the vacuum pump. You possibly can even use a store vac to evacuate a lot of the air first.
Steve: I let my college students do it.
Ben: That’s how he sells electrical ones.
Steve: I do have an adapter for my electrical pump that lets me do the guide pump. I don’t present them that till the tip of the day.
Ben: I even tried a type of huge Ziploc vacuum storage baggage on a flat press. I wouldn’t belief it for bent work, but it surely labored completely for flat. I used to be getting about 12 inches of mercury. I like increased than that, but it surely was sufficient to get the job completed. These baggage are low cost.
If you happen to’re stepping into it, Roarockit is accessible. However I preserve pondering: for CNC workholding and different causes, having a vacuum pump within the store could be good. You then see HVAC vacuum pumps for $120 and assume, “What’s the distinction?”
Steve: Your pump isn’t working the entire time throughout a six-hour session. If you happen to get seal, it comes on possibly as soon as each 20 minutes for about 10 seconds.
Ben: That’s extra usually than I anticipated. With Roarockit, are you keeping track of it and hand pumping, or letting it roll?
Steve: It depends upon the seal. If the butyl tape wants changing, I’m keeping track of it. However I’ve left the home and are available again to discover a leak and the bag down round 12 or 11 inches of mercury, possibly decrease. Not very best, but it surely nonetheless labored. It doesn’t need to be good.
Ben: No, all the pieces must be good earlier than you begin. You want all of the gear, all of the ability, all the cash. And if you happen to make a mistake, simply promote all of it.
Steve: If it doesn’t work out, take pennies on the greenback and do away with it.
Query from Joe (Discord): Easy methods to veneer an MDF field?
Vic: We’ve obtained a query from Joe on Discord: “I’ve a bunch of MDF and veneer from a storage sale, and I used to be pondering of constructing a veneered field. What’s the standard manner? Assemble the field then veneer it? Lower the items, veneer them, then assemble? Veneer the MDF face, reduce the items, then veneer the perimeters? I can see all of those working—what works finest?”
Steve: You possibly can do all of that. However if you happen to assemble the MDF right into a field first, it’ll be a lot tougher to press the veneers. My intuition is to veneer whereas it’s nonetheless flat—in items, or one huge piece—then reduce it and do the joinery to make the field. Every other manner makes it laborious to press the veneer to the MDF. And you should do each side.
With MDF, it’s not as dangerous if you happen to veneer one facet and wait a day to do the opposite. However Baltic birch shocked me: I veneered one facet and waited half a day or a day for the opposite, and it had already warped.
So veneer it earlier than assembling the field.
Ben: Whenever you have been writing your e book, did you do experiments—simply veneer issues and see what occurs?
Steve: I did. I felt accountable to the reader. I examined totally different supplies and thicknesses: hardboard, MDF as much as three-quarter, totally different thicknesses of Baltic birch, and wiggle wooden. I assumed Baltic birch could be the strongest and never warp, but it surely warped the worst—potato-chipped. MDF was higher however ultimately did as properly.
One other experiment: we’re at all times advised you should use veneer tape as a result of masking tape will depart a hump. I examined it.
Ben: Clarify: a hump in what?
Steve: Whenever you joint and be a part of veneer, you may use masking tape on the glue facet to carry it collectively, flip it, put veneer tape on the highest, then peel off the masking tape earlier than gluing. We’re advised masking tape is simply too thick to go away there. I discovered masking tape does depart a hump if left on the glue facet—and it additionally creates a glue-resist space. One layer can present it; two layers positively do.
As for veneer tape, as much as three layers will be okay, but it surely depends upon veneer thickness and species. Three layers can depart a bump. You possibly can sand it out, however you solely have a lot veneer.
Ben: The important thing to not sanding by way of veneer is to not sand by way of veneer.
Vic: Like Yoda.
Veneer tape fundamentals and course of
Ben: Veneer tape is that skinny tape—like gum tape—totally different widths, and variations with holes: two-hole, three-hole, five-hole, nine-hole.
Steve: Machine stitchers use the large stuff. A machine stitcher is a big machine—feed in two items of veneer and some seconds later it comes out stitched completely.
There’s additionally threaded variations and different adhesive programs.
Ben: Stroll by way of your course of.
Steve: I joint and be a part of two items of veneer. On the glue facet, I exploit masking tape throughout the grain to carry it collectively—possibly each three or 4 inches. Then I flip it, moist veneer tape, and do the identical throughout the joint, then one lengthy strip alongside the joint.
As a result of veneer tape will get moist and I exploit an excessive amount of water, I sandwich the veneer between two items of MDF so it doesn’t curl. By the point I prep the bag and glue, I peel off the masking tape from the glue facet. The veneer tape is holding it collectively. Then I glue the substrate and press.
Ben: So veneer tape isn’t between the substrate and the veneer?
Steve: Often it’s on the highest. However you should use veneer tape on the glue facet in sure conditions—like cross-laminating a backer veneer when your face veneer grain path wants to vary. In that case I exploit the veneer tape with holes so there’s glue-to-wood contact by way of the holes.
The holes can even allow you to examine the seam.
It’s simple to stretch masking tape an excessive amount of on the preliminary joint and trigger one veneer to slide below the opposite, which creates a double layer in spots—laborious to repair. Having the ability to see the seam provides assurance you haven’t completed that.
Ben: Do you purchase holey veneer tape or stable?
Steve: Each. Holey tape is tougher to take away. Strong peels off simpler. Holey isn’t dangerous—scrape and sand and it’s gone.
Vic: So for Joe: veneer inside and outside first, reduce it up, then assemble the field.
Ben: Issues for joinery on veneered items?
Steve: Deal with it otherwise. If you happen to’re slicing rabbets just like the Ferrazzi technique, sharp instruments matter. A helical router bit works higher. On the desk noticed, a blade meant for melamine/MDF/veneer works properly—extra enamel, destructive rake (just like aluminum-cutting blades). It reduces tearout.
A observe noticed works nice due to the splinter guard and the blade motion, particularly with a blade made for veneer. Lay the observe on the veneered floor.
Ben: Steve even cuts and joints veneer with a observe noticed and a jig. A observe noticed will be the last word veneer jointing machine.
Steve: Even nasty curly ash veneer—observe noticed does an unbelievable job.
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Discussion board query from TJ: Walnut burl veneer + balanced panels (5 components)
Vic: One other query from the discussion board, from TJ. 5 components—we’ll rapid-fire.
TJ’s Q1: “When utilizing a burl, must you use a crossbanding below it? Will it enhance stability by growing glue floor?”
Steve: I don’t assume you might want to. It’s further work you don’t want until there are potholes within the veneer. Burl usually has pinholes and glue can bleed by way of—but it surely’ll bleed by way of whether or not you crossband or not if you happen to apply extra glue. Use veneer glue and blend the solids again in. If it bleeds by way of, sand it and it’s gone.
Ben: So veneer glue isn’t nearly open time—you’re saying there are added solids in Titebond Chilly Press?
Steve: Sure. VacuPress has Unibond One, related: PVA with solids, just like Titebond Chilly Press. Open time/set time is just like Titebond III.
I used to make use of Unibond 800 (formaldehyde-based) for longer open time and no chilly creep, however I finished utilizing it. It dried rock stable; squeeze-out was like shards of glass.
TJ’s Q2: “Since I can’t discern grain sample in burl, do I must be involved about directionality?”
Steve: Probably not, aside from aesthetics. Some burl sheets have straight grain popping out of it. Burl sizes are restricted, so on huge work you is perhaps jointing a number of items and it will probably look busy. Grain path is much less of a priority. If you happen to’re nervous, veneer over one thing man-made like hardboard or MDF.
Ben: Burl can get garish shortly.
Steve: Much less is extra.
TJ’s Q3: “Do I must be involved about inside veneer species or directional placement to make sure stability and stability? Higher woods than others?”
Steve: No. If it will likely be seen, decide one thing stunning. It doesn’t must be burl on the opposite facet. The rule is: what you do to at least one facet, you should do to the opposite facet.
Ben: Does it need to be equal thickness veneer on each side?
Steve: In an ideal world, identical thickness, however realistically it’s not. It’s actually the glue sealing each side that issues. Thickness doesn’t actually come into play usually.
TJ’s This fall: “Would an MDF-faced ply core be higher than birch?”
Steve: I don’t assume it issues. Veneering is placing stunning wooden over ugly wooden. With trendy glues, bonding isn’t the difficulty. In my store I preserve it easy: MDF and Baltic birch. You possibly can veneer over metal or glass.
Ben: If you happen to might solely have one substrate?
Steve: Quarter-inch MDF.
Ben: Why quarter-inch?
Steve: As a result of I can stack it and make it thicker if I must.
Ben: I at all times heard MDF explodes with water-based glue.
Steve: Don’t put MDF in a cup of water. However I spotted: Michael Fortune veneers over MDF, so it’s high quality. No grain path worries. Quarter-inch MDF is the last word substrate.
Ben: What about particle core? Cabinetmakers swear it’s flatter than MDF.
Steve: Baltic birch high quality has been disappointing the final a number of years—usually warped. MDF is good and flat. I haven’t gone out of my manner to make use of particle core; I’ve solely used it after I wanted one thing heavier. For acoustic causes I’ve made sound boards with particle core.
Ben: Speaker cupboard materials?
Steve: Most likely. A variety of audio system use MDF.
TJ’s Q5: “Would a inflexible glue be higher to make sure stability?”
Steve: No. Trendy glues do an incredible job. Simply be sure to stir the solids again into the adhesive. You possibly can’t shake it—you should stir it.
Ben: Too many Bonds. For Titebond, you should stir.
Steve: Titebond advised me: don’t shake it. Stir the solids again in. I didn’t need to spend my time stirring glue, so I purchased low cost fly swatters, reduce one down, bent it, chucked it in a drill, and now I stir glue with the drill as an alternative of blending it like a potion.
Vic: It’s best to promote that to Titebond.
Wrap-up and present notes
Ben: I’m actually pleased we had Steve on. Individuals nonetheless really feel tentative about veneering. What I like about Steve is he makes the entire course of approachable. In his e book he veneers to steel so you may make a veneered magnetic board. It appears unimaginable, and it’s not troublesome.
Any time you be taught one thing new in woodworking, it’s laborious till you recognize. Then it’s like dovetails: folks freak out, however they’re simple to chop. Arduous to good, however practical dovetails come shortly.
Steve’s e book doesn’t get too valuable—it’s “right here’s the way you do it,” after which you possibly can take off. Thanks for being right here, Steve.
Steve: Thanks. I respect the sort phrases. Veneering will be completed cheaply. The primary undertaking within the e book will be completed for lower than $30. Even if you happen to don’t purchase a vacuum bag, you probably have a garments iron that reaches the cotton setting and a few PVA glue, you possibly can veneer with an iron and glue you have already got. If you would like home concord, purchase one other iron for $20 and preserve your personal. Veneering is superior. It’s not that arduous.
Ben: What’s the identify of your e book?
Steve: Veneering Necessities, by Cedar Lane Press.
Ben: How do you spell your final identify?
Steve: Der-Garabedian. D-E-R hyphen G-A-R-A-B-E-D-I-A-N.
Ben: Thanks for being with us, Steve.
Steve: It was superior. Thanks.
Ben: Earlier than we go, right here’s what you’ll discover on this week’s present notes: Adrian Farzadi’s Veneered Containers With a Twist (article and video workshop), Owen’s Plywood and Sheet Items for the Woodworker, Scott Grove’s Working with Burl Veneer, and Bob Van Dyke’s Introduction to Wooden Veneering (together with flattening figured and burl veneers). I’ll additionally embody a VacuPress video overlaying their merchandise and various kinds of vacuum pumps, together with why you don’t need to use a finances pump from a neighborhood instrument retailer.
If you happen to’re watching on YouTube, please click on the thumbs up. If you happen to’re listening on Apple Podcasts, a five-star overview could be superior. Thanks once more to Vic for stepping up. Thanks to Jeff Rose for expertly mixing and assembling all the pieces we’re doing right here. We’ll see you in two weeks with one other episode.
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